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cloning
May 2009 
Where's the (Cloned) Beef?
~C4Chaos
(Crossposted from www.c4chaos.com)
FDA OKs Food From Cloned Animals.
Uploaded by okta'lonli on 28 Dec '06, 10.46am PST.
Steve Pavlina says: "I'm surprised to see such resistance to eating clones. If you're OK eating animals in the first place, cloning seems like it would be a relatively minor issue. If you eat anything that comes out of typical factory farms these days, you've already left nature far behind. You're swallowing a man-made chemical factory in every bite, including antibiotics, growth hormones, and pesticides. Plus you've digested enough man-made marketing to consider animal cruelty irrelevant. If you can handle that, then trying out for Fear Factor seems more congruent than worrying about cloning." (Thanks to Jon for the link).
I agree. Unless you're a vegetarian or a vegan, resisting consuming products from cloned animals is a bit hypocritic. If you can stomach eating genetically modified turkeys, you should have no problem ingesting food from cloned animals.
As a former vegetarian, I have no problem ingesting food from cloned animals as long as it has approval from the FDA.
But here's my question to my vegetarian friends out there. Let's say that meat can be "grown" such that you could have a lean patty (with minimal fat and maximum protein and vitamins) on your plate without killing cows or other animals, would you eat it? Why or Why not? Be honest now.
~C (for Consuming clones)
Access: Public
This oughtta be interesting - course I don't really trust the FDA & USDA with the way they define things. Silly me fresh to me still means right off the plant and never frozen means didn't get below 32 degrees. Soo any of those gov types saying it's OK makes my eye twitch.
The real issue with cloned meat is the genetic damage that seems to occur very frequently. Who knows how these damaged cells will be processed in our bodies? Will they cause cancer over the long-term? There hasn't been ANY long-term studies to see how these animals survive and how their meat holds up when consumed by other animals.
As far as eating meat goes, this Buddhist loves his steak.
(Eyes rolling back in my head) Mmmmmm … . steak.
Peace,
Bill
I can't face the factory-farmed meats anymore—I've seen one too many video clips of what life is like in there. It costs an awful lot more to eat the organic, free-range, grass-fed blah blah blah blah…. but I have resolved to live with the expense (and pray like hell that the labels aren't just more bullshit). Thich Nhat Hanh addresses this issue in his book “Anger”. His solution to the expense of eating humanely raised animals? Eat less. So simple : )
I'm not comfortable with eating cloned animals. WH and HeyOk pegged the issues. Also, look how badly many meat producers mess up the originals through irresponsible and inhumane treatment of livestock–overcrowding & other disturing living conditions, the inappropriate foods they are fed, and the chemicals/drugs with which they are treated.
We humans have rarely pulled off any clever new idea without unpleasant and extreme side effects in our early attempts–you should hear the history of the automobile, if you haven't already! The birth control pill is another dewzie. There are plenty of mistakes to be made in cloning, and I'm sure we'll make them.
Also, I have a feeling that somehow the meat industry will consider these cloned creatures to be even less deserving of humane treatment. And that, in particular, really worries me. Would I eat a free-range organic much-loved and biologically safe/correct clone-cow? Uhm yeah, probably. But, think about it: Why are they making cloned cows? Is it because there aren't enough cows jammed into the factory farms already? I mean what is the point of cloning them if not to take further control and ownership over living things, and in an industry that has already proven heartless and even downright brutal, I can't applaud this.
Would I eat a cow plant? Hmm…. I'm not a vegetarian. So maybe I shouldn't answer this one. Mind you, I and my family are now vegetarian one week per month for 2007, thanks to SAMME's challenge http://princesamwise.zaadz.com/blog/2006/12/no_meat_for_a_week
Having said all this, I have nothing against the ordinary, humane, hard-working farmer who takes good care of his or her animals, and never forgets they are living things who deserve respect and compassion.
This is much more than you needed or asked for, C4, but I couldn't help writing it! It's been on my mind.
bows,
crow
I think that all of the issues have already been discussed here…and very thoroughly, thank you Crow, WH and HeyOK…I’m with you guys…there’s one more thing that I think needs to be mentioned…the fact that the FDA has said that they don’t believe a lable is necessary on cloned meat products…just as they don’t believe they are necessary on GMO’s…this, to me is one of the worst parts of this…because it doesn’t really give us a choice (and that would include within the organic world…if the cloned meat could be proven to be “organic”…and the standards for that are a lot less than most people think…than we could be buying good Coleman beef…that was cloned and not know it)
To me, having the choice is important…that’s really all I’m asking for
:)
Namaste
thanks for all your insightful comments. great to hear your perspectives on this.
however, my original question was, would you eat meat, that is grown, not cloned. grown = cultured from stem cells. so it's meat that is not derived from a cloned living animal but from cells of living animals. it's a long ways to go. but consider these:
“A single cell could theoretically produce enough meat to feed the world's population for a year. But the challenge lies in figuring out how to grow it on a large scale.”
“To produce the meat we eat now, 75 (percent) to 95 percent of what we feed an animal is lost because of metabolism and inedible structures like skeleton or neurological tissue,” says Matheny. “With cultured meat, there's no body to support; you're only building the meat that eventually gets eaten.”
“If successful, artificially grown meat could be tailored to be far healthier than any type of farm-grown meat. It's possible to stuff if full of heart-friendly omega-3 fatty acids, adjust the protein or texture to suit individual taste preferences and screen it for food-borne diseases.”
“Cultured meat isn't natural, but neither is yogurt,” says Matheny. “And neither, for that matter, is most of the meat we eat. Cramming 10,000 chickens in a metal shed and dosing them full of antibiotics isn't natural. I view cultured meat like hydroponic vegetables.”
and yes, we humans did a lot of stupid things in the past. and we're still doing a lot of stupid things in the present. and we'll still do a lot of stupid things in the future. but that's how we learn.
I'm a vegetarian. My reasons for becoming and staying are much the same as Pavlina's. As for your question, would I eat meat that is grown, my answer is… I don't know. I enjoy my vegan hemp-protein shakes. I like not being bogged down by meat. But I am in support of growing meat from stem-cells. It would be thousands of times healthier than what's currently on the market, and it would be triillions of times more humane (measured in number of lives saved).
My two cents,
~M
C4,
I have to apologize, I could tell I was wandering completey off the question, but I did it anyway :P Growing meat….. uhm. You know, I think the problem I'm having with this is even picturing it. That's what tripped me up. Still, I'm not a vegetarian, so my reply will be coming at you from a different place. But, if they were really producing good, safe meats without any creatures dying, I'd eat them.
The idea is entirely new to me, and it does weird me out. But on the face of it, it sounds like it has potential. The sentence that helped me get my head around it a little was “Cultured meat isn't natural, but neither is yogurt.” We'll see what happens, and I'll keep my mind open. Mind you, if you've ever discovered a glass of milk that was left out for toooo long, you'll know that yogurt is a lot more natural than cultured meat.
(The “no need for labelling” thing that Shanti mentioned is just breath-takingly wrong. Wow. Thanks for bringing that to our attention Shanti. I bet that organic farmers who do NOT clone would be glad to let us know, so we'd end up looking for those sorts of messages on labels, and stand up for our right to choose.)
crow
Hey C4, I just went back to eating (some) meat in the fall, after being a vegetarian for about 6 years. I decided to eat meat in hopes to actually improve the conditions of animals…for the time being. Might change my mind:P I'm trying to eat primarily organic and humanely raised meat, which living in Boulder is fairly easy to do. I understand that “organic” and “humane” are difficult to validate, but given that money is a huge factor for change in our society, I feel that I'm doing more for animal welfare by eating meat then not, speaking with my money. However, as for your question, I would definitely eat “grown” meat, so long as it were safe. This would definitely have an impact on how many animals are killed in factory farms, so I'm all for it. Eating grown meat is no weirder than eating a veggie burger, in my opinion:) I do love veggie burgers. Boulder has a fast food, organic, and veagan restaraunt - good stuff, fyi.
Thanks for sharing this. I think that many in the integral, or fluffy, community too easily forgets about animal welfare in their “transcending” of “green meme” consciousness. As you've quoted, 10,000 chickens in a metal shed is not good for humans or animals, so what are we going to do? Growing our meat sounds like a fine solution.
I think that the cloning of meat “cultured meat”.. not the cloning of animals … is the answer & it is what science & evolution are working towards. cultured meat – put in that context seems much more humane and moral than cloning the animal itself and housing 'it' to grow then eat. However, the question that also gnaws at me… is the 'cell' or 'cells' themself…. are also a 'life'. same as a veggie… same as an animal… so …. is it humane to grow meat outta cells….. that are housed & farmed….. du-du-du-du. We need to feed ourselves 'at this time'…. how do we do that and yet respect the whole of life while we sustain ourselves. And its a large population we are going to need to feed. Trampling on another living thing to futher our living…. of course, at this time in our evolution we need to feed ourselves .. the truth is being respectfully grateful & humane. I think science can help us adjust with our need to feed and i think cloning is the next logical step.. realizing we will as you say screw it up & fix it also as part of evolution & learning to do this. It is a very interesting thought that you are posing - and thank you for posing it. I hope my words draw a picture of what i'm trying to say, i'm not so good at putting the thought image into words without their jumbling.
No! I shall not eat green eggs and genetically cultured ham. I shall not eat them, Obi I am.
Seriously folks - test tube meat? How far are we going to go here?
?!
All the way, Obi. ALL THE WAY!!!
another thing to think about: just because we eat vegetables doesn't mean that animals don't suffer. e.g. agrarian society from third-world countries still use animals for tilling the soil and farming grains and vegetables. so we have to ask, does “enslaving” animals more humane? i'd leave it to you to reflect on that.
Searching said: “However, the question that also gnaws at me… is the 'cell' or 'cells' themself…. are also a 'life'. same as a veggie… same as an animal… so …. is it humane to grow meat outta cells….. that are housed & farmed”
good question. per my own layperson's understanding, stem cells can be farmed without necessary killing. so in theory embryonic stem cells can be farmed from free-range animals living happily in a farm somewhere, or better yet, in-vitro. but then again there's always the debate of “soul during conception.” take for example this reasoning:
“God endows every embryo with a soul at conception. So intentionally destroying an embryo is murder - even if it's only one-cell big. Theologians typically define the embryo in terms of its human “trajectory.” Since every fertilized egg cell has the inherent potential to become a fully formed adult, they argue, interrupting that process at any point - from conception to birth to nursing home - is to disrupt a sacred process.”
but remember that this debate only applies to humans. most people still don't regard animals as having “souls” that's why embroyonic stem cell research from animals are legal. but then again remember that, “A single cell could theoretically produce enough meat to feed the world's population for a year. But the challenge lies in figuring out how to grow it on a large scale.”
a single cell!!! imagine how many animals would be spared by that single cell. well at least in theory.
as good as it sounds, i'm not sure if this would solve world hunger. case in point: we already have the technology to cheaply mass-produce grains and vegetables yet people are still dying of hunger every minute. so it's not just a problem of technology but also a problem of economics and politics and most crucialy, our psychological development as a human race.
Oh yes, with a *wink* included ;) I love that commercial - for kleenex - the monk saving the little critter life forms & using the 'germ fighting' tissue.. and then the realization & the declaration for forgiveness. Makes me smile everytime i see it.
LOL yeah. that Kleenex commercial is very funny but deep :)
Ahhh Fudge the zaadz monster ate my comment - maybe now I'll be more succinct.
Never saw that commercial - very funny and deep, agreed.
~C “as good as it sounds, i'm not sure if this would solve world hunger. case in point: we already have the technology to cheaply mass-produce grains and vegetables yet people are still dying of hunger every minute. so it's not just a problem of technology but also a problem of economics and politics and most crucialy, our psychological development as a human race.”
That sums it up for me really. It's another money maker when viable options already exist (except they don't make as much money, carry a patent, etc, etc).
We need protein yes, not necessarily meat.
It's like the developement of ”golden rice” several years ago. Folks used to grow and eat varied diets and then monoculture farming came along and suddenly technology had to step in and reinvent what nature had already provided. Follow the $$$$$$$$$$$.
I knew this was gonna be a informative post - Thanks ~C